Is 10X Season Here?🔥Bitwise Matt Hougan INTERVIEW

Could Robin Hood be starting a bull run right now? We're gonna be breaking that down for you guys. A lot is happening. I want to thank our sponsor today and that is Tandem where you guys can get into full self- custody. Very easy to do your secure crypto hardware wallet. And one of the things about Tandem that I think a lot of people misunderstand with self-custody is the ease of use and also the ease of being able to get this set up for you. It's like a credit card. Works with your phone, always present. Make sure to get a three card set so you've got a backup. But you guys, of course, can use our link down below. It's going to give you a 10% discount. And they also have several offers from time to time. So, always check what's going on over there on the website. This is the self custody to use. So, make sure and check it out. Tell them we sent you. I'm going to start with a clip of Matt Hogan and then we're going to bring him on live. But I want to go with this clip first. Take a look. >> That's just not true. I mean, just look at that chart. one of the most beautiful charts in finance. Eventually, the market will wake up to this reality and it's going to be DeFi summer 2.0. And I think that will 10x usage. Defi summer 2.0. Here we are. >> There you go. You you called it, Matt. I have to give you the credit even though you were wrong. 10x season had not had in fact if you look at unis swap it, it looks more like 20x [laughter] right there. So, uh, in terms of active addresses jumping to 1.2 2 million. Of course, all of this being driven by what's happening on Robin Hood chain and now we're seeing an absolute, you know, barn burn in the market. Where do you think UniS swap heads from here? We kind of talked about that pre-show, but what does this mean for unis swap? What does this mean for Robin Hood? Kind of give me your thesis there. >> Yeah, you know, the reason I was excited about the number of transactions was that you could believe in uh DeFi working. It proved itself through multiple bare market cycles. It hadn't gone away. It had strengthened. It had worked. And if we got the right regulatory setup, we got the right institutional adoption, you could see it scale dramatically. That's what we've seen on Robin Hood chain. Uh obviously that's been hugely beneficial for unis swap. We're now burning something like 120, you know, $130 million in fees on an annualized run rate basis. That's probably an outdated figure. Maybe we're up to 200 million. I don't know. Um, I think this is just the start. Uh, and I think that's true for two reasons. One, I think Robin Hood chain is just going to continue to grow from here, right? We're very early in the penetration. I don't think it's being adopted, certainly not by US users. I still think it's early in its penetration into the world's mind share. So, from that perspective alone, I think uh, Uniswap has substantial growth just from Robin Hood chain. But the thing outside that is every Robin Hood competitor has to be looking at what's going on at Hood and saying they just launched a billion-dollar business in the span of a few months. Shouldn't we be doing something too? And the unique thing that Robin Hood did was that their go to market included things like unis swap, included things like morpho, included things like aerad drrome. And so if we start to see that replicating across other institutional settings, uh, you know, could we 10x again? I'm not sure, but I don't think it's been built into the price of unis swap. It's still a $5 billion asset or something that seems off by an order of magnitude to me. So I'm still very optimistic on where unis swap goes from here. >> So unis swap obviously a big part of how Robin Hood chain is working. You kind of see the chart right there. Up 43%. This is just since the end of July. So you look at this kind of growth and remember Robin Hood had eclipsed right here. But this is the thing that you know I think a lot of people missed and I was one of the people that kind of I I won't say pressured them but I was very vocal in saying we need to launch faster. We need to get more products out. All these things because Vlad and the team they were promising a lot. And I kind of thought well there's no movement. And then all of a sudden now you see why there was no movement because all these strategies were being put in place. All these simultaneously almost launching at the same time in the sense of growth. So the opportunity is super uh for sure. And I think you're right. I think the key here is going to be uh exponential growth coming in inbound for Hood and Hood chain. So lot to look at there. I want to go over to a clip here because this is Bloomberg talking about your sole ETF. Let's cut to that one. Another chart that looks very similar to that is Salana. Also up more than 40% in the past month as institutional money pours in. Salana just had its best week of inflows of the year last week. And if you look at the ETF tied to it, the Bitwise Salana staking ETF crossing $1 billion in assets under management less than one year since its launch. >> One year 1 billion. Congratulations. Uh I'm looking at Eric Balshun as he's talking about this in terms of the Bitwise ETF. Uh first of all, where do you think this goes from here? I mean, this is uh exponential growth within the Salana. Is there more appetite here? >> Well, I think there's a lot more appetite. You have to think about those inflows that Bunis is calling out there. You know, 1.7 billion of inflows given that we were in a bare market. Obviously, if this flips to a bull market, which many of us think we are still in the early stages of that and you have people looking for ways to invest in tokenization, I think this could be a multi-billion dollar ETF. Uh, interesting. I'm not guaranteeing that. Of course, I could be wrong, but we hear a lot of demand from wealth managers, from traditional investors. How do I play the growth of tokenization? And there are many ways to answer that. Hood is one way to answer that. But another way to answer that is the L1s on which this is taking place and certainly equity tokenization tokenized stocks is you know largely a Salana based phenomenon at this point and there's a there's reasons to believe it will be a leader in that space. So we think there'll be substantial demand for this ETF as we accelerate into this bull market that will maybe make the initial demand look look relatively small in scale. man uh the initial demand small and scale that's uh that's something to think about when you look at Salana as a whole especially in terms of growth opportunity here and it is one of those out there what about what do you think about staking ETFs in general in comparison how this market would respond to those >> yeah I mean look broadly I think people want to stake their Salana in the case of Salana you're talking about multiple percentage points that you can earn >> and uh I think also So, there's this movement to use institutional custody, which is a big deal. So, I I'm I'm bullish on them generally. >> Yeah. I want to go to a clip here. This is Tom Lee talking about the September setup, and I want to see if you agree with this. Take a look. People are edging into September cautious because markets are down, oil's up, yields are up, and people are talking about the seasonality. I'm going to be contrarian. I think this is a setup for actually September to be a strong month for stocks. >> Why? >> Well, I think one is that the inflation fears are likely to quell this month. We have the jobs report to on Friday. Next week is August CPI and then we have of course the FOMC rate decision in September. I think the sequence of those events is going to show inflation is weakening and I think the odds of September hike might actually drop to zero. >> All right, so there you have it. You've got Tom Lee very bullish for September. First of all, do you agree with him? >> Well, I mean, he seemed to call today's rally, right? Today's rally is all about uh rate expectations coming down. I do generally agree with him. I don't think rates are a story right now. I think we're in like the great muddle or we're going to drift sideways and we're going to periodically expect rate increases and periodically expect rate cuts, but rates will be about where they are in a handful of months. I think the story is more on the fiscal side. I think there's a lot of bull cases um for Bitcoin. But yeah, there you go. Look, I I I think this is we're we're in something that looks more like the Greenspan Fed era where rates were relatively bounded for a sustained period of time. Um but I do think look, Tom called it right. I think he literally called today's rally. This is why we're rallying today. I'm relatively optimistic going into the end of the year. You know, it's very interesting to me because uh Trump has been on record just the other day in the Oval Office. He was asked point blank, you know, what do you think is going to happen here next week in the FOMC? Uh what happens if they raise rates? He says, hey, we, you know, we have the lowest interest rates worldwide. He'll do what he needs to do. And you go into just what it was looking like yesterday, September 6th, at 6:00 a.m. we were at a 59% uh and then of course all of this fell through and boom, right there it just started to drop and the market of course responded. So now no change in order almost a flip from where we are in the beginning of the week. >> Why and how do you think this happens? Well, I think it's it's part and parcel of the the Worsh Fed, right? In the POW Fed, we talked about forward guidance. We had the dot plots. We had expectations. Uh Wars came in and said we'll be data dependent and driven by what's going on in the market. And what that means is as more market signals come in, you can see this data flip. I think the real story on inflation is it's slightly elevated. It's slightly coming down, but it's a bumpy road. And I expect that will continue into the future. That's why I think this is the great muddle. That's why I think, you know, Wars basically is going to sit on his hands uh for a long period of time until you get an overwhelming data signal. But that's the era we're in. We're in a datadriven Fed and so every data point is going to adjust those expectations. But I think for an investor, the thing to focus on is we're going to be in this like threes zone for a while. >> The story isn't going to be rates. It's going to occupy headlines. It's going to get a lot of coverage, but the story isn't going to be rates. It's do we see more interventions from Bessen and the Treasury side. Do we see more action in Japan? I actually think that's where the macro focus is, and that's right now pushing in a very bullish direction for Bitcoin. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you've got other things that are kind of leaning into what's going on in crypto. You've got uh the SEC chair Paul Atkins saying, "Hey, yes, we think that we're headed for a Senate vote coming on the 15th." That's just here what 10 days away it feels like. When you look at that right now, especially with the alignment because the poly market is still very negative on this in terms of getting through for closure. What's your position right now? Are you still very >> Well, I think Yep. Well, I I'm positive on it from a market signal. I think the probability is probably lower than 50%. Okay. But as you indicated, the consensus in the market is it ain't happening. Right. So the market has priced it in as not happening. Therefore, it's either a non-event if it fails or an extraordinary positive catalyst, an upside surprise, right? It's like going into an earnings event, uh, expecting no earnings or very low earnings and you sort of only have the potential for a positive upside catalyst. I think crypto is fine in either scenario. If we don't get clarity, Atkins will continue to act in the way that he has, dripping new rules every few weeks that sort of define this outside of the clarity bounds. If we get clarity, I think it's a runaway bull market and we're quickly back up towards six figure Bitcoin, uh, substantially higher ETH, and much higher DeFi prices. >> Yeah, for sure. Well, one of the things that is starting to kind of lead in that direction is what the SEC is doing on their 24-hour trading round table. This, of course, setting up right now, and it looks to be a kind of the who's who. They're going to kind of break it down into three different panels. They've got one that's going to be looking at, you know, 24-hour trading as a an overall strategy. They're going to have the resiliency side of it. That's panel two. And then panel three is talking about kind of where do we go from here. When you look at what the SEC is doing when the idea of what we could be seeing in the US very soon is that 24/7 trading. This seems to be like they already have a road map. >> I think there's two things that are fade to complete and it tells you everything about how you should be positioning your portfolio. Uh the first is, you know, regardless of what happens on the Clarity Act, the SEC is going to find a way to move us to a tokenized 247 365 trading environment. Atkins has said this is the biggest upgrade in how financial markets work since we went from floor-based trading to digital trading. I think that he wants this to be his legacy, that he moved us into this modern world of instant settlement and 247 trading. I think that is going to happen regardless. And the second is related to that which is look the world is moving to tokenized rails. It may take 6 months, it may take 2 years, it may take 3 years, but we're going to move to a world where all assets are tokenized and they are all traded on blockchain based rails. What I think that agenda points out is the exact specifics of how that happens are still a little bit unclear. What does that mean as an investor? That means that making any one singular bet is probably relatively risky. Saying it's going to happen exactly this way. I'm going to put all my chips only on Salana and that's going to be it. That's probably risky. A safer approach is to say innovators are going to win on this space. I want to own some Hood. I want to own some Salana. I want to own some unis swap. I want to own some Ethereum. That's a mega trend. That's a super cycle that I want to get behind. I think investors who take that diversified approach have a probably a great chance of success. Investors who are picking and choosing, you should know that there's still uncertainty in exactly how this happens and who the winners are. But make no mistake, it's going to happen. That's what the market is telling you. >> Your tweet right here, people are making two compounding mistakes when evaluating DeFi. Um market size, one people think it's kind of the crypto market size. you're saying, "No, it's a $500 trillion asset market." And then the value capture, people think they've maximized the Fegen when they're really just getting going. So, I think everybody is now starting to wake up to this. The more I talk to fairly sophisticated investors, they're already there, but even new people coming into the market understanding what this means, they're starting to get the picture here. Are do you first of all do you think we are are vaults kind of an easier adoption product for those kinds of investors? >> I think there I do I do agree with you that they're starting to get the picture that that what's happening on this crypto side is just sort of fintech 2.0 and that these are real entities with real revenue and they're tacking real markets and the opportunity is very scalable. I think, you know, specifically to things like vaults and I know we want to talk about ATPs. I think you're seeing people productize this in a way that makes it readable for investors. It's one thing to say there are these onchain credits which you can go and do your due diligence on and uh do your own credit analysis and evaluate and allocate to them. That's probably outside the bounds of what most people want to do. What a vault does >> is an institutional manager like Bitwise will do the due diligence. We'll evaluate the credit. We'll evaluate the smart contracts. We'll set up rules and then allow you to access those yields without requiring you to be on the front lines of curating those exact exposures. Look, that's that's how this market matures. First, you do it in a raw sense. You make those assets available and then you have curators on top of that who do the due diligence work that you want to outsource to package them. together together and deliver the exposure you want. I do think we're going to see more and more of that in the future. >> Okay. So, uh with all of that happening, you've got automated tokenized uh stock portfolios. You guys have wrote the ATPs have rolled out the likelihood of this uh first of all beginning, you know, give us kind of a framework or where you see this heading from here and some of the key points. I think you outlined a couple of them there, but can you go further? I'm I'm really bullish on automated token portfolios. For what it's worth, what those are is uh a firm will create a model like Bitwise capturing a theme in the market. It could be robotics, it could be cyber defense, it could be a narrow theme like Chinese robotics. create a model and then individual users can subscribe to that model and the stocks in that model will be automatically purchased in their individual portfolios and their wallets. I think this is how asset management will work in the future. If you think about what asset management is today, you have an asset manager creates a legal fund vehicle with a fund board that holds custody. Millions of investors deposit their money into this single pulled vehicle and then you manage that vehicle. There's a lot of junk in that process. What an ATP is is it use tokenized stocks. It uses smart contract technology to just remove all that junk. What you want is exposure to robotics, professionally managed portfol or guided portfolios, constructed portfolios that you can subscribe to without all the junk in the middle. So, where do I think this goes? I think they're going to be literally trillions of dollars in ATPs at some point in the future. Obviously, we're about one week in, right? One weekend into ETFs. No one knew what they were. In fact, it took, you know, 10, 15 years for ETFs to really take off. I think ATPs are that style opportunity. It I think it's how people are going to access asset management in traditional vehicles. And I think you'll see a lot of innovation from firms like Bitwise in terms of what we can do in ATPs, including some stuff, Paul, that we can't do in ETFs. uh because this is a more flexible lightweight rapper. >> Yeah, I think this is going to be an interesting model going forward because as we we see how these might work, the opportunities seem to be much greater at least to the upside, you know, especially as the market starts to mature with digital assets. >> I think there's going to be incredible opportunities of finely tuned themes of things that bear that combine crypto assets and equities or per assets. Um, look, again, I think this is a major way on how we're seeing how asset management is going to work in this tokenized age. They're going to be vaults, they're going to be ATPs, there'll probably be a few other vehicles that make tokenized assets readable to end investors. But make no mistake, I think it's going to be a multi-t trillion dollar market. That's one of the reasons why Bitwise is excited to be uh an early pioneer in the space. >> Speaking of vaults, I'm looking here at the Bitwise uh vault on Morpho. You can kind of see the comparison here with ETH and base. You look over on Jupa Bitwise. Also, this total supply capped up at around 500 million. Why the cap here? Because now it's growing on Salana. >> Yeah. Why capping? >> On any of these vaults, you have to think about the available exposure that you can get, right? You know, it's an infinite pool of capital. If you take this to infinity, Paul, you can imagine, could we do uh $10 trillion in this vault? we definitely couldn't. There isn't that exposure. Um, so you need you need to you style it like that. But we're very excited to continue to roll out these vaults. You know, we we launched the the Papy uh vault uh premium APY on Morpho uh which holds real world asset exposure. That's the interesting thing here. It's not sort of fictional pointsbased yield. If you look at something like Papy, what you're talking about is getting exposure to crossber finance. You're getting exposure to GPU rentals. Uh you're getting exposure to yields coming out of HELOCs. Those are very traditional credits, but they can be packaged into this onchain format made available via a smart contract. >> I think it's a beautiful example of how traditional finance and onchain finance come together. And we've already seen, you know, a few million dollars uh flow into that. It's it's been pretty great. using Agora there on the stable coin. You can kind of see the breakdown here by Bitwise. Uh which is interesting when you look at how you guys are doing this. First of all, real world assets. What what is backing this up? When you say real world asset, what kind of real world asset would that be? >> Yeah, things like yields coming out of of home equity loans, right? You don't get much more real than that. So part of this exposure is into uh into into HELOCs provided by Figure uh things like crossber finance uh from Huma PST. Uh crossber finance is a massive industry globally and uh we can package that up and deliver that in a vault-like setting. That's how you're able to get yields that are above uh currently above short-term treasury yields even for overcolateralized positions, right? because you're accessing these very real world yields that won't go away. I think that's why it's appealing in the market. So many yields across the history of crypto have been fictional, fleeting, and fake. And that's gotten crypto into a lot of problems. It's really nice that we're at the point now that we're talking about things like home equity lines of credit, right, which is one of the most traditional sources of yield in in in the markets, and we're able to package that in a tokenized or a fault-like factor. Um, I think it's an example of where this whole thing is going and why to get to one of the earlier tweets you showed, this is not a$ two trillion dollar market. This is a $500 trillion market. Right. That's >> that's the change that people need to wrap their heads around. We're not talking about crypto only, NFTts, memecoins, those have their place, but we're talking about home equity loans, mortgages, crossber finance, these enormous markets. And that's just uh just we're at the early edge of that, but it's why I'm so bullish on the entire ecosystem >> when Okay, so I want to go back to the R RWA situation real quickly because I thought I had read somewhere that there that you also had GPUs that were being used as as part of that RWA stack. Is that true? >> That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh tools for accessing uh firms that are are are are borrowing to finance uh GPU purchases. Obviously, that's a big topic right now and there needs to be a lot of capital injected in that space to fund the AI buildout. And so, that's a portion of this Papy vault as well. >> Listen, we've been following Collector Crypt. This is another one. This is RWA essentially Pokemon cards that were on Collector now leading uh the real world asset space in terms of collectibles that we'll see rolling in. Do you think we'll see more of these kinds of RWAs flowing into Tradfi? >> Oh, definitely. I mean, look, you're going to get a wide variety of exposure. I saw people uh talking earlier today on the timeline about bringing uh luxury goods uh into the space. Uh and I think you I think you will you will see that you know it's easy to make these things. These markets have already always existed, but they've been in isolated silos outside of traditional finance. The incredible thing about this technology is they can be brought together and you're starting to see some interesting combinations emerge. I'm not sure the memecoin stock pairing that's been driving a lot of the excitement on Robin Hood is a persistent theme or a short-term theme, but that's the kind of thing uh unusual pairing that I think you're going to see more of. And it will surprise people. It will feel odd to people, but it's how you you sort of stumble your way into interesting new primitives. And I think we're going to get there. >> Talking about interesting primitives, let's go over to vaults real quick cuz this is uh this is something that we're tracking pretty heavily. You've got Steakhouse Prime pretty much controlling the top slot. You guys, of course, are starting to come up the ranks. Uh is Bitwise gunning for Steakhouse here? Look, I think of I think of these great um early pioneers in vaults like like Steakhouse and Gauntlet um as friends. Uh Bitwise wants we think this market can 100x. If it does, I think we'll all be very successful. So, we admire the businesses that they've built. >> Um in some sense, we're competitors of course, but mostly we're growing the pie and bringing in more customers. >> I love those answers. >> I mean, of course. Of course, underneath the surface, Paul, I want to win, you know, that's the way they want to win, too. But I do think the pie will grow, you know, >> substantially. >> All right, let's go over to our lightning round. Uh, Matt, we always love to do this with you. The first question we have is, "Circle is the best rate hike token to watch." What do you think? >> Rate height token. Uh, yeah, that's a pretty good play. I'll take it. >> Okay. Try to find yield farmers. Uh, September 15th will shock the world. You think that's the case? I think you're leaning more towards we may not get this might be a nothing burger. >> No, I think it's a nothing burger. I think we're in the great muddle. Um I think the Fed is not the primary actor in the market right now. >> Interesting. All right. >> Well, this is in reference to clarity on September 15th. >> Oh, okay. Sorry. I'm I'm I'm thinking of two things. Um >> so, >> uh No, look, I I still I think it's higher than May maybe edge me toward the middle. I think it's higher than um than the poly market odds, but if I had to make an even 5050 bet, >> I think in the current political climate, the ethics clause makes it very hard for Democrats to align with this and uh [clears throat] >> I'm like a cautious no. >> Yeah, I'm kind of with you there, but I'm I'm optimistic, but I just don't know if it's going to stick. Uh here we go. Which asset has sexier appeal at and tokenization unlock for retail? Do you think it's going to be equities or commodities? equities, man. Put me on the far left there. Uh people love stocks and uh they will love tokenized stocks even more. >> But even with oil and gold and all this other stuff I can trade out there, not as much as >> Yeah. You're going to you're going to see that you're going to see that blip up and down. I wouldn't be surprised to see like tokenized copper have its moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. um Pentagon Materials, Rare Earths, Uranium, but I think those are are are short-term flashy. I think if you think about what's happening on Robin Hood chain, people love these stocks. >> Yeah. Treadflop season begins. This is the launch of gated products and chains will be a rude awakening for Tradfi. Do you think that could [laughter] >> I agree with that? I agree with that. I'm I'm short the the Tradfi comes in and disrupts things. There's just no record in the market of that of that being true. >> Meme coins keep uh being underestimated by the suits. >> Not you. You're a suit, I would say, but I don't I don't think you >> I definitely Yeah, look at me. Um 100%. Yeah, I think I think I think traditional finance is out of touch uh with the strength of meme culture. I think they're very out of touch with the strength of social trading. I think that's a t trend that's here to stay and yeah likely we're like inning two of that and that's not even being discussed in the August halls of Wall Street. So I think I'm very much in agree on this. >> The change is here. Market is is already expecting a fee switch on Morpho should we ape in. >> I'm I'm bullish on all the major DeFi protocols and Morpho is a leader in that space so I like it. >> All right, DCA. Um all right, here we go. Bitwise should plant a flag right now on the Robin Hood chain ASAP. >> I can't reveal my uh my uh go to market, but we think about Robin Hood chain every day. >> I'm going to Okay, I'm going to put you there, but I'm going to say of course. Yes, you're going to be there. Bitwise Jupiter vaults on Salana will outperform the ETH base vaults. We're already seeing that right now. >> Oh, uh that's that's a that's an interesting one. Um I don't know. I don't know. vault. That's a tough one for me. Split me down the middle. >> You're down the middle. I think likely. Uh, all right. Here we go. Attention is liquidity. The GTA 6 launch will benefit Salana and Robin Hood the most. [laughter] >> I like that one. That sounds right to me. >> All right. I like it. >> Are you a GTA 6 player? No. >> I am not. I'm not. I'm aware of the phenomenon. Uh, but I do think attention is liquidity. And I think there's a billion ideas that can span off of that and it aligns with these trends in the market. Yeah, I love it. >> Coin, this we talked about this on the pre-show. Coinbase is is probably having an internal identity crisis right now. This is somewhat been abandoned by the dgens and it may be because you look at the way Vlad has dealt with this market and then you look at the way Brian has gone. You know, it's two different games. So, do you think he they got a simple fix in order or do you think it'd have to be radical like, you know, Armstrong growing a mohawk or something? [laughter] >> I I look, I'm actually bullish on Coinbase. I I would call it a simple fix. I I think um >> they they sometimes move slowly, but then they they really arrive and deliver. And um I think their revenue is going to grow pretty well. Broadly speaking, I'd be long I'd be long Hood and Coin and short uh the Trady people who aren't trying to make this transition. Uh between Hood and Coin, I think that's a tougher one, but I like that you want him to grow a mohawk. >> Well, I I'm I'm going to say a beard maybe. You know, you know, kind of get that cool hipster look, you know, get back into the DJ. I don't know if it can be done, but you know, Coinbase needs to become cool again. Michael Sailor will have to conjure up more DeFi products to stay relevant. Do you think that will happen? >> Oh, do I think he'll conjure them up? No, I do not think he'll conjure them up. I think he's staying focused on stretch >> and strategy. Yeah. >> Terry Duffy forced to partner with Hyperlid by the end of 2027, [laughter] >> dude. Probably yes, man. Probably yes. Um >> Okay. Uh look look >> man that day will if that day comes Matt >> well you know I I don't I don't mean it specifically for that but I do think uh the derivatives markets have woken up that their their world is changing really rapidly. Yeah. And so I think they're going to have to adapt in some format and what you've seen again with Robin Hood integrating into these DeFi protocols I think is a roadmap that other people are going to pay attention to. So >> yeah, >> you know, all of this would have sounded strange four years ago. You would have been dismissed for even mentioning it. Um, now it's within the Overton window, and I suspect it gets more and more possible feeling over time. >> Well, Robin Hood has been a little bit of an outlier in terms of their strategy really forever. You know, uh, Vlad has been very edgy, always pushing the boundary. So for him to make that step was pretty impressive. Did you anticipate that? >> No, I really didn't. It sort of flies against a core belief I have of brokerages, which is there's a brokerage for every generation and it doesn't change. Um, you know, Robin Hood was sort of the brokerage for millennials the same way Erade was for Gen X and uh maybe Schwab was for for boomers and I thought it was pegged in that space. The ability to reinvent itself to capture this younger onchain market is really incredible particularly because underneath the surface Robin Hood is actually also going upstream and targeting richer demographics and actually targeting the institutional space with some acquisitions in the advisor space. So look, I think they're actually building a a financial giant. I've called it a generational buy and hold. If I had to pick a financial stock to buy today and own 10 years, >> Robin Hood would be it because they've shown the ability to adapt multiple times. >> All right, here we go. Matt Hogan is already mentally bored of ETFs. Uh, Vault Life only or you're going to know people still use Fidel. >> Look, yeah, we love ETFs. We're going to launch more ETFs. It's a big part of our business, but um I think in the next decade you're going to see Bitwise do more on chain than it does um does elsewhere. But we still love ETFs for sure. But you can put me edge edge me towards Vault Life. >> Okay. All right. I'm gonna I'm definitely all the way in on Vault Life for for Bitwise and you and Hunter and all the team over there. We're watching closely. >> It's the direction to travel. >> We're watching closely. >> I appreciate it. >> Hey, listen. Thanks for coming in today. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it. If you like this video, hit like and subscribe. Drop a [music] comment down below and also join our free private member group. The link is in the description.