Why Anthony Scaramucci Is Still Bullish on Bitcoin — Even If Trump Made CLARITY Act Harder to Pass

Bitcoin to me is still a global asset with a global brand and you're probably in the late stages of the four-year cycle now and by October I think you'll see the prices rallying again. This is one of the rare examples of technology that gets adapted by retail investors and then the retail investors sort of force the conversation into the institutions. So I think that's where things are smashing into each other right now. But I believe that good technology eventually gets adopted. But the president by being involved in the space has created this sort of dur flame log of activity burning very brightly against him [music] and the people in the industry. I want to be wrong about it, but I know Washington and >> you know the political consequences. >> I got my 11-day PhD in how Washington works and I'm just telling you it's going to be hard to do. I hope I hope it happens. >> All right, we're here with Anthony Scaramucci. Anthony, sir, it's good to see you. Hey, good congratulations on everything. Zach, >> thank you for inviting us here on behalf of the Coinage community. Excited to be a media partner this year. Excited to sit down with you. A lot to talk about, obviously. >> Your first time in Jackson. >> This is my first time in Wyoming, the whole entire state. >> What do you think? >> This is awesome, man. I can see why you've been cooking it here for a while. >> It's a beautiful place. >> It's very nice. And obviously the people here, the conversations here have been very exciting as well because I think we're at a a time and maybe you foresaw this coming in terms of crypto and tradi colliding now uh and what it unlocks. It's a very different cycle. >> Well, you know, listen, I don't want to take credit for John Dorsey, who I think you know, >> sure, is the CEO of Salt. Uh he does a beautiful job organizing putting this stuff together. He wanted to create a conference that was somewhat adjacent to the central banking conference, the Federal Reserve Conference, which is down the road from here uh next week. Yeah. >> And so his attitude was, okay, they have a central banking conference. Let let's have a decentral banking conference and let's put it in Wyoming. And uh it was smart idea because we got some of the Fed governors, Paul Atkins, uh we've got uh CFTC chair, we got a whole host of different people where that trade defy crossover is happening here at the Wyoming blockchain symposium. So that was pretty cool. I think it was a great idea by him. >> It is. And it's also a a combination of politics as well. And you got a new book coming out kind of highlighting some of the elements of populism and mistakes along the way, which I definitely want to get into. But maybe we just kind of kick off with with what you're witnessing as Wall Street politicians, regulations finally collide in this moment because from where I sit, it's almost like crypto had represented this life raft for a lot of people who felt like the system wasn't working for them. It's kind of an interesting moment in time to start to see some of the elements get co-opted maybe from Wall Street. >> Yeah. Oh well listen I mean this is one of the rare examples of technology that gets adapted by retail investors and then the retail investors sort of forced the conversation into the institutions and I think the reason that happened really had to do with DoddFrank I think it had to do with Sarbain Oxley if you really chronicle the last 25 years of financial services regulation it's gotten very tough it's very sticky particularly after the global financial crisis so these guys they're locked into a certain system. If you want to bring in new technology that makes a system better, they're going to be very resistant to that. Of course, they have the money to spend in Washington to push their agenda visa v the system. So, so I think that's where things are smashing into each other right now. But I believe that good technology or at least technology that's better than the prior technologies act eventually gets adopted. So, that's a runaway train that's going to happen whether people like it or not. Um, but you're you're raising you're raising the right issue because you would have said, okay, Bitcoin is a libertarian asset. It's for the libertarians and now Bitcoin's owned like one of the largest sh holders of Bitcoin is Blackstone. I'm sorry, the largest shareholder is Black Rockck and their IBIT, you know, their Black Rockck ETF. So, so there is a sort of crossover happening, but I still think there's lots of libertarian elements of Bitcoin and other assets in this space >> for sure. And obviously, you've been very outspoken about the need to kind of get clarity done, the Clarity Act now in DC, and we're seeing another push for this. And it's kind of similar situation where rules are getting rewritten and power is just kind of changing around in terms of who kind of capitalizes on this. Uh, I think I've seen you kind of talk about the moment being critically important in terms of America keeping up with the rest of the world right now, but you're also equally just as kind of critical of President Trump and his crypto dealings. So, kind of how do you square >> Well, it's funny because I I was on a World Economic Forum panel in January of 2025 and I was the only uh nonpublic CEO. So, when you're a nonpublic CEO, you say whatever the hell you want, right? your board. So, who's my board? What are they going to say to me? Right? And I'm not going to mention the guys I was on the panel with because it'll probably upset them. But they all said to me afterwards, "Well, I couldn't say that, but I'm glad you were on the panel to say that." And I I said in January 2025, the president by launching a memecoin 3 days before his inauguration and rug pulling 67 800 million for himself out of a memecoin that's now crashed down 99% in value is a sore spot for a lot of people and it's a sore spot for his adversary. So, when you're trying to get something passed like Clarity and you oppose the president, uh, one of the source spots is, well, he's made all this money off of crypto. They think it's unfair. They think it was self-deing by the president of the United States. And so, they put this massive ethics provision into the deal, which has slowed down the deal and possibly even extinguished it. So, to me, um, you know, the president has been good for crypto. I try to be very objective, but he's also been bad for crypto. you know, he's been good. Atkins is great. Republicans are back in power. They're pro- crypto. We've ended the Gensler era, which I thought was terrible. But the president by being involved in the space uh has created this sort of dur flame log of activity burning very brightly against him and the people in the industry. So, we'll see what happens. But if you're telling me, and I'm I don't want to be overly skeptical. I'm generally an optimist, but we've got uh the Congress coming back. will have seven weeks to pass a massive piece of legislation where more hours have been spent on this legislation than DoddFrank. >> Okay. The legislation after the global financial crisis. And you're telling me they're going to put this together in seven weeks and pass it and be right up against that close to the midterms. I'm not buying that. Okay. I don't see that happening. Now, if it happens, I really want to be wrong. Hopefully, you'll invite me back. You'll dunk me in like the public square, you know? Like remember those dunking mechanisms? Yeah. I want to be wrong about it, but I know Washington >> and you know the political consequences. >> I got I got my 11-day PhD and how Washington works and I'm just telling you it's going to be hard to do. I hope I hope it happens. >> Yeah. No, it does seem very tricky and each day we kind of get a little bit of a trickle of new uh Trump dealings in crypto kind of coming out which makes the the hill to climb. I feel like if you're a Democrat specifically very >> No question. >> Yeah. Um but in terms of I guess kind of the other side of the coin which is we did get genius passed and we did see rules and even the SEC commissioner pur comes on coinage all the time and says there are plenty of levers to pull in terms of even if clarity doesn't pass there are rules we can make there are things that can be put in place. >> How important is that really though in terms of the fact that a lot of people have come around? >> Well she's she's leaving out I love her. She's been in so many ways one of the big innovators from a regulatory perspective. I think if someone ever writes the regulatory adoption history story, she'll be one of the great leaders and I love her. But she left out one word, impermanent. >> Mhm. >> Because remember, I can be the SEC chair and I can more or less create the Clarity Act from my interpretation of current regs. I can do that. Yeah. >> And the the judges will probably give me enough latitude for me to do that. But that's impermanent because the next guy that comes in can sweep all of that out. The reason why you were trying to get this done in clarity, it's a beautifully named act, right? Because we're trying to provide regulatory clarity that is illovable from the left or the right. Here are the guidelines. The judges have legislation. >> Yeah. >> That was passed by the Congress, signed by the president. And so, man, that's an airtight thing. And that then opens up the horizon. And so the dysfunction in Washington is troubling because how do you plan your business on impermanent regulation? How do you plan your business with the notion that Gary Gensler could return to the business uh in 2029 and wreak wreak havoc on you? You know, as I think with the what they're making a big mistake about is they have to think about American businesses. As you know, as an entrepreneur, it takes 10 years to build a business. Well, how am I going to build the business with regulatory uncertainty? You know, so they're doing the American people a disservice, frankly. >> Well, that's why it's been interesting to come out here in Wyoming and see a lot of experiments popping up kind of trying to go state by state or different charters or coinage for what we've built in terms of the Colorado >> co-op and uh different it shouldn't be this complicated. I will agree. It shouldn't be this hard. >> It's unnecessary. >> Yeah. And it holds back a lot of things, but >> you could not start Skybridge today. I left Lehman Brothers. I had sold my first business to uh Newberger Berman which was acquired by Lehman Brothers >> and I was able to leave Lehman. I got Dick Fo to help me gave me some money for my firm. Uh I started Skybridge with four people in a small little uh hedge fund hotel room. You know it was like this big. We had a shared conference room with other hedge fund managers. I could not do that today. The first nine people that I would need to hire at Skybridge Yeah. are lawyers. The regulations helped me because it's prevented competition. >> Uhhuh. Okay. But it's not helping the society, you know. We we we don't we have to think about it in a better way. >> Well, I wanted to talk to you about that. >> This is a hand up country. This is not a handout country. >> Okay. And so I'm I'm I'm sure that the uh smarter people will retake that narrative from a political perspective. >> Well, I almost feel like that's the piece, too. And we were just before we sat down, we were kind of talking about what things will look like in kind of that next administration. Obviously, no one really knows which way that'll swing. No one even knows who might run on the Democratic side as well, who their original candidate might be. >> Well, they've got the Let me tell you, we're in an anti-incumbency mood, okay? Obama got taken out by Trump, Trump got taken out by Biden, Biden got taken out by Trump. We're in It's like throw the bums out. By the way, if they could take out both parties, they would. [laughter] But we're stuck in this two-party system. Remember, the highest level of registrations are independents now. They fled both parties. >> Yeah. Which is why if you open the primaries, that would be a very interesting thing to do everywhere because you'd liquidate some of the extremists that's going on in the society. >> Yeah. Before I get into who you think might run for each one of these parties, uh, coming up, >> is there any chance that you would ever kind of run? I mean, we're in the land of moose. Could there be a bull moose? Could there be a scaramucci? >> A bull moose party? >> Could there be an independent >> Well, listen. I'm I'm running for re-election in my marriage. I'm trying to stay married, okay? My wife believes in castration, which I don't believe in as a platform. That's not something I want to do. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I'm I I don't think I'm well suited for it because what makes me a good guest for you is I'm going to tell you the truth. >> Yeah. >> You go into politics, you got to start lying to everybody and you got to start saying that >> you're allowed to say on your podcast. I'm assuming you are. Yeah. You got to say that doesn't make sense to people. Trump is great at it. You know, Jeb Bush, I worked for Bush before uh Trump >> and he was up in New Hampshire telling people, "Yeah, okay. Look, I got to apply some physical discipline. We got a huge deficit. We got to cut the deficit. You're not going to like hearing this. I'm going to raise your taxes. Trump got to the same group of people. I'm going to balance the budget in four years and I'm going to return a dividend to you with the surplus. Yeah. >> He's created 22% of the national debt that the country has in six years. So, you have to understand people want to be lied to. I'm not a great liar. And so I'm I don't see myself doing it, >> but I sort of weirdly take it as a compliment that you'd want me to do it, you know. >> Well, I think that's the most that's the interesting thing is that I think you might be the most commonly cited example of someone who can be objective, understand the technology, understand how it could and will change society and then kind of be the face of the movement. It's like I think you're but also you're the industry's kind of like >> but remember but also try to help people because like I want people around me to be successful. I want younger people to be successful. I want kids that are growing up maybe in poor families where they're like, you know what, I'm in a poor family, but I got a shot. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I can move classes here in the United States. It's become way harder. And so, but what we've know about technology is if we improve and we adopt newer technologies that are better than prior technologies, we make the society more abundant. We make the society more aspirational. >> Yeah. >> And so, you know, I don't know. I just wish we would stop thinking about coveting and thinking about how are we going to make this a market-based fair solution to create more economic aspiration. Well, that's the interesting thing about kind of coming full circle on the idea of uh you know, someone like an Elizabeth Warren who had been so anti-bank for so long to now kind of be the one doing the bank's bidding against >> she's in the pocket of the banks now. You know, listen, what happened was, you know, I write about this. you you were generous to mention my book and I have all the wrong moves coming out in September, but I write that the transformation of the kleptocracy of the political kleptocracy really happened after Citizens United because what did Citizens United say? This was a Supreme Court decision in January of 2010 that stipulated that you could put unlimited money into the system to support a politician or a political cause. And it was the rise of the political action committee. And so we're now 9 to one. I want to restate that. It's 16 years later. We're 9 to one on donations. And guess what happens, Zach? Look at the legislative agenda over the last 16 years. Big food, big business, big pharma, tax cuts for the rich, capital gains reductions. You take the depreciation, buy the private plan, take 100% of the depreciation in the first year, and nothing for the poor in the middle class. a big beautiful spending bill favors the rich. You got a couple things in there. They give you some breaks on tips or maybe overtime, but you're taking 17 million people off the healthcare role. This is all Citizens United induced. And Warren can say whatever the hell she wants. But again, another smug, hypocritical liar. She's basically taking the money from the banks and she's taking their talking points and she's reading them into the congressional minutes, the congressional record. I think it's embarrassing for her, but she wants to stay in. another part of the gerontocracy. Okay. She should be well into her retirement. All of these people should, but there we've turned this uh Congress into like an old folks home like an elder care. >> Yes. >> Uh situation. >> Yeah. Wrong. >> Well, I mean, I think I guess that's a good >> maybe way to ask how you see 2026 playing out in terms of both the midterms, but then also looking ahead to the next presidential election, 2028. We were talking. Are you in the camp that maybe AOC is the best shot >> for the Democrats? >> Democrats. >> Well, I mean, she could get the nomination, but if she gets the nomination, she'll get I I believe she'll get crushed. >> I don't think the country I think the Democrats are locked and loaded on democratic socialism. If you look at the polling, it's very bad. I mean, if you're a capitalist, it is. 18% of the Democrats believe in capitalism. I mean, I love capitalis. So, so if they if they put an AOC up front, I think she gets destroyed by the Republicans because I think remember something that Trump understands. This is an economic war and this is a cultural war. >> And there's a lot of people in this country that are not up for the pronoun. You remember what AOC said last week made me laugh. She said, "Woke one. Woke one was crazy." Right. She's trying to get off of some of the nonsense that's living culturally in her party. Yeah. But I think she gets if she gets a nomination, if she first of all, she's got to be willing to run and it's not clear to me she is, but let's say she is she gets the nomination. Uh I think it'd be tough for her. >> Well, I mean, I think the idea of of populism, as you talk about uh in kind of the components that you wanted to write about in this book that's coming out, it's interesting to kind of pair those points because last time we spoke with you on Coinage, we were talking about M Donniey's rise >> and it's very similar in terms of what he's hitting on in terms of the system not working for you and what Trump did to get elected. So I agree in terms of kind of like the capitalistic structures of kind of leveling the playing field that seems like >> but you have to understand though not to interrupt you just want to explain this to your viewers and listeners. We're not in a capitalist system anymore. >> We're in a crony capitalist system where you can feed the beast and then the beast pays you and there's this sort of toxic circularity of things that are going on that are actually very unfair to the market-based system. And so you're getting a lot of corporate welfare, you know, a lot of tax breaks. I just gave you something about regulation that protects the big boys. >> Yeah. >> Because if I have to hire nine lawyers before I can start Skybridge, well then I can't compete against the asset managers that are already in business. You see what I mean? Yeah. >> And so that has to be delayered and fixed so that we can create the aspiration. But when people, oh well, they're socialists, we're capitalists. You're capitalists. You guys believe in corporate welfare, man. You're not capitalists. Okay. So, we have to we have to restart and renew the system. The system is broken on both sides, frankly. >> Yeah, I know. And that's kind of the hardest piece of kind of how you fix it. I don't really know necessarily what the answer becomes. >> Well, you know the answer and I know the answer. They know the answer. Remember what I said? Less coveting. Okay. I I got it. You want to be a trillionaire. I I guess that's important to you. I don't have any more shirts you're going to buy or houses or yachts. And I understand that's important for your ego, but it's really bad for the society. >> Okay. What would be better for the society is let's fix the food insecurity issue in the city. Let's fix the educational fragmentation in the country, which would be really good for the society. Do what Andrew Corni did. He built all of these uh libraries. Why don't you build AI tutorial centers around the country to teach these kids? uh some of them are dyslexic or have ADHD where they have these private customizable AI designed tutors to help them grow and achieve what they can achieve. Why are you going to sit there with a trillion dollars where we got people at the bottom end are not doing well? Okay, I don't want to live in a McMansion in a bobwired security perimeter while my fellow neighbors are suffering. I'm not interested in that. Okay, that's not real wealth to me. Well, I wanted to ask you about that, too, and I'm glad you mentioned AI because it's kind of one of those pieces that I think the parties are also still trying to figure out where they land on this issue in terms of seeing uh, you know, a tool of abundance collide with >> what crypto has kind of pioneered in terms of, you know, uh, scarcity and the the pieces that >> the rails that all of this can kind of run on. As an investor, as you're kind of watching this play out through the lens of what is this going to do for society, how do you kind of square the points of like ways that this technology could either contribute to inequality in America or potentially also be something that could help fix it? >> Again, you know, tell me what the policies are. Okay. So, if the AI companies are forced to give indigent people access to AI and they're forced to create learning centers and they're forced to create this sort of aspirational uplift for lower and middle inome people, even if jobs are being laid off, they'll be replaced. I don't buy the argument that a AI is Armageddon. You know, we may end up with a 4-day work week. We might end up with a three-day work week. You know, the industrial revolution took us to five days. And so you could be sitting here with more leisure, more recreation, and therefore you could have more leisure and recreation jobs. >> Okay? You could have more entertainment jobs. Okay? So I'm I'm not buying the apocalypse. I'm buying that there will be a transformation of the economy. There'll be a transformation of our lifestyles, that could be quite positive. However, if you're telling me that I'm rich and so I have access to the AI and the other guy's poor and he has no access to the AI, it's gonna be very bad for the society. Mhm. >> And so, you know, you have to you have to push through good policy some level of fairness. Okay. I don't want the government to own the AI like Bernie Sanders does, but I want the AI executives to think the way the old >> wealth in this society once thought. I'm super wealthy. Let me build Rockefeller University. let me take all of the land that I acquired here in Wyoming, which the Rockefeller family did, and give it to the National Park Service so that this is a shared collective asset for the country. Uh, and start thinking like that. >> Yeah. >> Because if you think like that, people are going to look up and say, "Okay, this guy got rich, that woman got rich, but she shared the wealth with the society and she gave me or he gave me an opportunity to create my own wealth." >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's very >> we're pulling the ladder up, Zach. >> I would agree with you. >> I got here. That's great. Let me pull the ladder up. Yeah, >> I'm not interested in that. That's that sucks. >> Well, I think that that's the kind of the thing that a lot of people in crypto who who do believe in kind of a better form of capitalism, what I think is kind of cooperative capitalism the way that I see it in terms of giving more access to ownership. And we've seen this with companies staying private for longer is like by the end of it, most of all the upside's gone. So what what are you really participating in if you're a retail investor? >> Well, that was a mistake. That was regulation. Again, that was DoddFrank, Sarbain, Oxley, all the regulation. The the the companies looked around and said, "Okay, you have to sign your life away for that financial disclosure document. Sure, you could lose every one of your shares if your accountant got something wrong on your earnings." So the Elon Musk looked around and said, "I'm not doing that." Yeah. >> Okay. So, I'll stay private, >> you know. And and Uber Uber stayed private too long. You know, Google went public in August of 2004, 22 years ago >> from when we are speaking. >> If you put $10,000 in Google, close your eyes, woke up 22 years later, you have $1.7 million. So, Google went public, uh, if they had to suffer with all the post global financial crisis regulation, okay, they wouldn't have gone public 2015. And to your point, all that economic rent would have not been shared with retail investors. >> So this is something Paul Atkins, who's been a participant here at the blockchain symposium, you know, he he would say, "Hey, we got to fix this. We got to get these companies, we have to incentivize these companies to get public faster." Yeah. >> So that we can get the 85 million people or the 100 million people that participate as Americans in the US stock market an opportunity to own this innovation. >> Yeah. And that's I mean that's why we've gone down to the crypto task force to talk about kind of our model around tokenizing co-ops because it is actually weirdly one of the things that even Democrats who are fiercely anti-crypto and Republicans who are pro crypto kind of see eye to eye on which is hey we need to give more ownership access and equal opportunity to investors who've been locked out. But you know, Zach, I love you. This is probably one of the reason why you're so successful because you have this like polyianish view. But that's not what they do, right? They'll tell you that, but then they'll be like, "Okay, where's the money coming in?" And from what lobbyist? Oh, okay. And what does that lobbyist want me to do? Oh, okay. Let me tell Zach this. And then I'm going to do exactly what that lobbyist does. Oh, Elizabeth Warren. Uh, she's on line one. Hello, American Banking Association. Who am I bashing today and what am [laughter] I saying? I mean, come on. I mean, that's how it works out. >> Well, I think that that's kind of the elements that like people who got into this space and were very big fans of Bitcoin like kind of appreciated is that there wasn't that in this system. There wasn't anyone kind of controlling it and it became kind of just equal footing together. >> But but you understand there still isn't though. >> See, that's the beauty of it. Yes, it's been some institutionalization as you've got you and I pointed out, >> but Bitcoin to me is still a global asset with a global brand. And you're probably in the the late stages of the four-year cycle now. And by October, I think you'll see the prices rallying again. >> Yeah, this is kind of how I wanted to to close out our our time together, too, since we're running out of it. But the idea of kind of where Anthony Scaramucci now still sees those opportunity. You've been in this game for a long time. You've been very kind of uh again, one of the few faces that still can say they're respected through everything in the crypto space. >> I've survived a lot of brand markets through direct honesty. Right. I had to go on CNBC and announce that Sam bought a from FDX bought a piece of my business. Eight weeks later, I announced he's going to jail. [laughter] >> I mean, it was I went from I went from hero to zero faster than a Porsche. >> And I was in there I was in the trenches with you, man. And it was Yeah, it was tough. I mean, I went back on CNBC and I had mentors kind of look at me different, too, after all that stuff. So it's >> Listen, listen. It happens. But, I mean, you I would tell people when stuff like that happens to you, be open, be honest, and be accountable. And then other people look around say, "Okay, wait a minute. I'm I'm not gonna fire the gun at this guy." Yeah. Uh, I'm not going to throw a stone at somebody that made a mistake or didn't see something because of course that's happened to other people on this planet. You know, that's the nature of the beast. Okay. You're a risk taker, started your own business, you're going to miss fire on a few things. It's impossible to get everything right. It is. >> But you got to you got to stay in the game. Yeah. >> But I I would just say with Bitcoin, I've been a Bitcoin holder uh going on my seventh year. We've done well. If you go from where I was to where Bitcoin is today, obviously it was higher. But if you look at Bitcoin, you really study Bitcoin uh and you if you believe in Bitcoin and you look at where the money printing is and the deficit spending and the out of control fiscal recklessness of governments like the United States, I think Bitcoin could easily trade to half the market capitalization of gold. Gold's a $25 trillion asset. Bitcoin is a $1.2 trillion asset. Could it trade over the next five years to 12 trillion? I think it could, >> especially if the US is sitting on a $70 trillion deficit. Okay, which will put a lot of pressure on this system >> and that puts us more north to like the price targets that we were talking about before. >> But again, you have to remember something and Mike Novograd said this better than me. You know, if Bitcoin's at a million dollars, I may not be better off. That means that there's so much wreckage going on in the society. Mhm. >> You know, I would like Bitcoin to get to a half a million dollars with everybody doing well, you know, and so we have to solve for these things. That's why we have to talk about them. You know, I get yelled at and I get, you know, these politicians go after me, but am I saying it isn't true? I mean, come on, guys. We have to learn. What did we learn from the movie over the over the summer? Okay. What was Homer trying to tell us? Okay. We have to take the truth. We have to accept the truth. We We hate the truth. >> Yeah. >> You remember the you know, a few good men, Jack Nicholson. You think you want the [laughter] truth, you can't handle the truth. Okay, we can't handle the truth. We live our lives in denial. >> That's true. >> But let's accept some truths and let's acknowledge them so that we can fix them. >> Well, we got an Odyssey reference in there. We got a shout out for the book, All the Wrong Moves. We got a little bit of everything in there. >> Your new company, right? >> Thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for having here uh having us here as a media partner as well. But Anthony, >> I want you back next year. Okay. >> I'm going to hold you back. >> It's an easy sell. We're in Jackson, Wyoming so >> it is a very easy sell. Thank you so much for your time again. Appreciate it. >> Bye-bye.